But it's clearly not in the same class. TomHennell 02:32, 23 January 2007 (UTC). I have just now literally opened my Stuttgart Vulgate at random. Either my Latin is so much inferior to my Greek that I can’t see the richness in the Latin text, or the Greek is simply more vivid here. The earth, however, was void and empty and darkness was over the form of the abyss, and the spirit of God was borne over the waters. The various Syrian Bibles always used a Hebrew-based text (although there was a Syro-Hexaplar version produced in the 7th Century CE). ut notum fieret nomen tuum inimicis tuis a facie tua gentes turbarentur. Strictly speaking, of the texts you mention only the Peshitta and Vulgate are truly "Bibles" (in the traditional sense). In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram 2) terra autem erat inanis et vacua et tenebrae super faciem abyssi et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas. 3. The Septuagint text is the text that the Church has preserved. I'm not sure what the editors were attempting to reconstruct, a majority 6th century Italian text? The Vulgate was based on the (pre-Masoretic) Hebrew text, the LXX, and the Old Latin Version. But it's out of place to imply that it was perfect in any sense. Jerome actually used the term to refer to the Latin translations that came The Masoretic Text contradicts the New Testament and the Septuagint, and the Septuagint was quoted by Our Lord and the Apostles (2/3 of all quotes). The Bible was first translated into Latin during the fourth century, and it was referred to as the Vulgate. John Whiteford. The timeline is anchored to a date of 586 BC for the destruction of Solomon’s Temple. Biblia Vulgata--Andrew c 01:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC), There wasn't much in Biblia Vulgata that was lacking in Vulgate. Furthermore, the Vulgate was not in a standard edition, with both Jerome's translation of the LXX Psalms and the Hebrew form of the Psalms being interchanged in various manuscripts of the middle ages. Thobis for Tobias, which has nothing to do with Classical versus renaissance spelling). The Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft may have sown some of this confusion when they printed little rows of variants at the bottom of pages. I think this is patently absurd. The Vulgate is approved via decree of the council of Trent. I propose abolishing the whole Catholic vs. critical distinction, I do not see how it is useful, and returning to the chronological order. LXX Biblical Timeline – Bible Research ToolsThis Biblical Timeline was created using passages from the Brenton’s 1851 Septuagint (LXX) [1]. This page, however, is intended to provide a brief history and description of only the versions covered in the accompanying tables: the Authorized Version (the basis of the NAF's names), the Hebrew text, the Septuagint, the Greek New Testament, the Latin Vulgate and the Douai-Rheims. And so when analyzing the theology of the fathers, it might be advisable to keep in mind that a static “spirit over the waters” is probably not the first and foremost image in their minds. The Septuagint added 100 years to the birthdates of the first five patriarchs versus the dates which appear in the Masoretic and Samaritan texts. Though the primary thrust of the blog is translation from the Greek NT, also included will be some translations from the Vulgate, Septuagint, and the odd Byzantine Greek text, simply because they’re fun. Rwflammang 16:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC), Iarann (talk) 07:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC), Relation of Nova Vulgata (and Novum testamentum latine) to Vulgate. The only variant in the Stuttgart's apparatus is atque for aquae. I suspect that there are at least three levels of possible meaning we can take from the comparisons of these two texts. Since it is likely, in the cases of the Vulgate and Septuagint, that the authors were very educated and probably meant the same thing, but were forced by the exigencies of their languages to choose certain words with various meanings, a concord of the definitions of two of these words probably sheds some light on the translators intention, and if he was a good translator, what the Hebrew actually says. 3) The three apocrypha are omitted. The ancient Jewish translation of the Psalms into Greek (the Septuagint) placed the Psalms in the same order but made different divisions between Psalms, resulting in 150 Psalms but with a numbering that is off by one through most of the Psalter; Orthodox Christians continue to use that numbering system. The article says correctly of the NTL (and I didn't put it in there), "The text is a reprinting of the New Testament of the Nova Vulgata." It is no surprise then, that the Vulgate faithfully translated the shorter chronological numbers in the Hebrew text that had been corrupted and changed in 160 AD at Zippori. a facie tua gentes turbentur. However, in terms of sheer influence and even reverance by its readers, only the KJV measures up to the Vulgate's original paradigm. Rwflammang 17:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC). More specifically, the current discussion is over the respective chronologies found in those two manuscrip… You are correct. A collection of readings showing the least Vetus Latina influence? It served as the masterpiece of St. Jerome, as per the recommendations of the Pope, Damasus the First, during the year 382 AD where it is listed on the Bible Timeline Chart.He was assigned to revise the Vetus Latina or the Old Latin translations. What's the story here? I'd say its most extreme departure in most of the text is its divergence from the punctuation of the Clementine, which is not something that most people care much about, and at any rate earlier editions also diverged in punctuation. The very reason for these translations is that there existed an audience familiar with Greek and Latin, but not with Hebrew. Perhaps I am missing something. But no, it's the NRSV, not the RSV. The most prevalent meaning for “inanis” is “empty, void” while the most prevalent for αορατος, its correlate is “unseen, invisible, and obscure.” It should be appreciated that the difference between a world that is empty (whatever “void” means) and a world that is “unseen” and “invisible” is very large. Anyone agree and/or want to take that task on? I'm still awaiting an example of where the Nova's spelling deviates from the Clementina's. The Vulgate is a Latin translation of the Bible, written in the late 4th century and start of the 5th, largely by the Dalmatia-born Eusebius Hieronymus (St. Jerome), who had been taught at Rome by the rhetoric teacher Aelius Donatus, otherwise known for advocating punctuation and as the author of a grammar and biography of Virgil. Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. I comment as a Roman Catholic, but I translate as faithful student of Greek, Latin, and (where applicable) Hittite texts. The sources of the many differences between the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate and the Masoretic text have long been discussed by scholars. So is the benedictine edition dispite the fact that it was never "official" (whatever that means) and was most definitely a critical edition. 2. Is Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, which is the official Bible of the Church, based on the Masoretic Text? Augustine's Discussion of the Septuagint in his City of God. I believe that the comment in the article regarding the Nova's spelling reform is false, and I plan to delete it soon unless someone convinces me I'm wrong. It is a vulgate in much the same sense that earlier revisions were, including Ximenes' and Hentenius' and Sixtus' and Clement's; they all corrected the text to a greater or lesser extent to better accord with the Greek. The fact that it's a Latin translation of a critical Hebrew text does not make it a critical text, unless you want to say that the NRSV is a "critical edition" of the Bible too. That the Septuagint is the most authoritative text in the Orthodox Church is something that is confirmed in just about any Orthodox catechetical text you could consult. Jerome said they were not in the canon, for instance. Jerome knew that the Jewish scribes had never considered these books to be part of their canon of Scripture, and for that reason he put them in separate sections. In the beginning God created heaven and the earth, The earth was unseen [invisible] and unwrought, and darkness was over the abyss, and breath of God bore down upon the water. Jerome never showed any inclination for the notion, so widespread today, that the Bible should omit the Apocrypha. Many thanks for the clarification of the terminology - though I would hope that most of that could be put off into another Wiki article, in the belief that point should not be at issue here. In terms of influence on their respective languages and the people who spoke them (not to mention religious life), yes the KJV and Vulgate are highly comparable. To this end, comparisons with other translations, especially the King James Version, is usually included with commentary as to how they could be misleading or why they should be understood (in light of the original text) in some other way. It is a minor revision of 70 of the 76 books of the Clementine vulgate, following the Benedictine critical edition (which is also the basis for most of the Stuttgart Old Testament). septuagint is from the planet sepultra and vulgates are from vagrea you don't wanna mix the two bad bad energy. So did the Jewish historian Josephus. The purpose of this blog is to elucidate certain scriptural passages, phrases, and ideas, so that they might be given the most faithful reading relative to what was originally intended. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Saint Jerome was a translator and was in no position to canonize the books of the bible. In the second preface (which I do not have before me, unfortunately) the editors defend at least one of their readings by saying that the correct reconstruction of a particular verse, concerning which they had been criticized, could hardly be described as a reading at all, since almost no one had ever read it. The Septuagint and Vulgate predate the Masoretic Text by 1300 and 600 years respectively. The earliest known use of the term Vulgata to describe the "new" Latin translation … ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκευστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος. In short, the Nova Vulgata authors did include large bits from the Vulgate, but I am sure they would never claim they were offering up the Vulgate. Another interesting feature show up in our next pairing: vacua, translating as “empty, void, unpeopled,” with ακατασκευαστος, which translates: “not properly prepared, unwrought, unformed.” Thankfully, these definitions are parallel, and not opposing. The Latin Vulgate is an important manuscript because it reflects the Hebrew Masoretic Text of the Old Testament (Tanakh) in 383 AD. The present Vulgate contains elements which belong to every period of its development, including (1) an unrevised Old Latin text of the Book of Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Baruch; (2) an Old Latin form of the Psalter, which Jerome corrected from the Septuagint; (3) Jerome’s free translation of the books of Job and Judith; Can anyone give me a reference for the startling assertion that there were Romana, Gallicana, Hispana translations made by Jerome? It is no surprise then, that the Vulgate faithfully translated the shorter chronological numbers in the Hebrew text that had been corrupted and changed in 160 AD at Zippori. Rwflammang 14:03, 18 August 2006 (UTC), It seems like an article about the identical content exists and should be merged and redirected here. 384 AD: Vulgate by Jerome: 4114 AD Latin translation of Hebrew. This page, however, is intended to provide a brief history and description of only the versions covered in the accompanying tables: the Authorized Version (the basis of the NAF's names), the Hebrew text, the Septuagint, the Greek New Testament, the Latin Vulgate and the Douai-Rheims. By adding 100 years to the birthdates of the first five patriarchs, this shifts their times of death to before the birth of Jared (960) and the generations of Methuselah and Lamech. The article is in manifest error when it says, "Kurt and Barbara Aland published the New Testament of the Vulgate as Novum Testamentum Latine." The Stuttgart's apparatus is reliable, and this means that there is no variant in any known source for the Vulgate's text to justify any of the variant readings in the Nova Vulgata. by Fr. The Catholic Bible is not actually based on the Septuagint, but Hebrew forerunner sources to the Masoretic Text. 1 Esdras (Esdras A /) and 2 Esdras are one pair of double traditions found in Septuagint collections (see as well the double traditions of Daniel and Esther). In my experience, the spelling in these two translation differs only where their source documents differ (e.g. Historically it is is interesting that during much of the Roman history the Latin language often took a back seat to Greek for many things in Roman society. As I see it, there are two ways to approach these two translations of the Hebrew. --Wetman 20:18, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC). The latin Vulgate contains books of the Old Testament that Martin Luther would change during the reformation period. Even at my level I know that this is not a discriminating Latinist who is writing this. On the left, you have a critical edition of an ancient Greek text. But a critical edition of a Latin text would not "correct" the old Latin texts in this way. Thanks to Prof. Joshua Scodel for his help on this issue. Whether or not particular books are regarded as canonical in different Christian traditions, they are certainly regarded as Canonical within the Vulgate as officially promulgated (e.g. The Masoretic text is a text that has not been preserved by the Church, and so while it is worthy of study and comparison, it is not equally trustworthy. The term revision has been much abused in English versions of the Bible. Comparison of Enumeration of the Psalms in the Book of Divine Worship and in the Vulgate The numbering assigned to the 150 Psalms in the Book of Divine Worship is based on the standard Hebrew text (the Masoretic Text ); it is a system being increasingly used by Roman Catholics , at least for English translations of the Psalter. The Septuagint was around the 2nd century BC while the Vulgate was from the 4th century AD so definitely the LXX, however the main benefit of the Vulgate in my opinion would be the inclusion of 4 Esdras which is basically the jewish Book of Revelation but goes unacknowledged to this day. (Just compare the 2nd and 4th columns on of the psalter comparison here.) The Douay-Rheims is an english translation of the Vulgate. The fact that what you see on the right is not a critical edition of an old Latin text is proven by the fact that there is no difference between its meaning and the meaning of the Greek text on the left! But that is most emphatically not the case here. The first verse is clear and unambiguous in the both texts. GBWallenstein 01:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC). I went ahead and made the change 8 March 2006. The last point that I’d like to make, is the small difference in emphasis between “ferebatur” and “επεφερετο.” The traditional description of the spirit as “rushing over the waters” doesn’t really give us an accurate sense of what the fathers were thinking if these two are the words that they read. I want to read with the eyes of a Hellenized Roman, and the eyes of a Roman proper — with the Eyes of the East and the Eyes of the West. I would have thought it was not POV that the Clementine Vulgate presents a protocanon, a deutrocanon, and a residual apocrypha - and that the wider ecclesiastical status of these books should not be an issue for an article about the Vulgate. I have altered rest of the Old Testament to the rest of the deutrocanonical books, as that is what I think is meant. I think perhaps that removing one or both of the inconsistent statements should be our short term fix. The fact that God's name is never mentioned is significant and shows that even though we can't always see Him, He's always working in the affairs of His people. Most of my Bibles are translated into English from the Masoretic Text, the NA or UBS Greek text, and the Greek Septuagint (most also infrequently referring to the Vulgate). Re different versions of the Vulgate produced by Jerome, I believe that this actually refers to different versions of the Psalter, and not the Vulgate as a whole. The Nova Vulgata is written in Latin, but it is not an attempt to reconstruct any old Latin text. When Jerome was creating the Latin Vulgate in the late 300’s, St. Augustine warned him to use the Septuagint, as it was the version of Scripture that Jesus and the Apostles used. Can someone characterize Jerome's Latin more informatively than this blurb? Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. Especially when you have a difference like whether or not Methuselah survived the flood. Rwflammang 16:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC). There is obviously a larger disagreement here, in that you believe that the Nova Vulgata is an edition of Jerome's Vulgate in any of its books ("a minor revision of 70 of the 76 books of the Clementine vulgate... a major departure in only three ways"). The Latin Vulgate follows the Greek enumeration as well and, traditionally, Roman Catholic Bibles used … Or will the Wikipedia nuns crack our knuckles with the ruler for daring? I was under the impression that it simply meant that here was a bible written not in the educated languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek — but in Latin, the language of the people. This is why, in principle, it is not a critical edition of anything. (It’s different among Eastern Catholics.) apparently the vulgates attacked the septuagint over a land formation known as the mount of heavenly odors *this is an english translation there is no word in english for this mountain. This verse is a good specimen of what I called 20th-century Latin prose composition: the NV editors have used their modern understanding of a non-Latin (Hebrew) original to produce a totally new Latin translation. Besides he included them as OT and the canon was fixed before the Vulgate at the III Council of Carthage. Keep in mind that, This page was last edited on 17 October 2020, at 17:14. Test case for accuracy of LXX vs. Masoretic: Shem as Melchizedek. This is a different Old Testament to that used by the early Christian/Jews and the Apostles who quote from the Septuagint in the NT. 2. Rwflammang 19:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC), I have removed the bizarre misstatement that the Vulgate was the first Christian Bible to use an Old Testament text translated from the Hebrew. Those are our first two levels of meaning that can be taken from a comparative analysis: the translators intent becomes manifest, and through our knowledge of that intent, some light is shed on the Hebrew text behind both translations. Jerome's flights of purple writing! [Cpt|Kirk 22:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)], The comparison between the KJV and Vulgate, and whether the Douay Rheims (made from the Vulgate) is closer should not be confused. The first approach would be to look at the primary definitions of each word, and then talk about some of the differences that would emerge in the understanding of the verse thanks to the understanding the of the various words each language uses. A certain tension is preserved by the words επανω and super, that prevents us from saying that the spirit was somehow interacting directly with the water. they have been at war for as long as I can view my data banks. ( Log Out /  I'm sure the people who wrote the 20th-century Latin I've just quoted are under no illusion that they're printing Latin words authored by Jerome or anyone else from the pre-20th-century history of Latin literature. ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκευστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος. 384 AD: Vulgate by Jerome: 4114 AD Latin translation of Hebrew. Rwflammang 14:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC), The source for these inconsistent data seems to be [1], which is a polemical essay directed against the Nova Vulgata. Not everyone considers these books canonical. Since then, the lists of editions have been leaking back towards their original chronological order. Can anyone give me an example of how the Nova Vulgata's spelling is more classical than the Clementina's? So here are the two versions: aquam ebullire facit ignis, I disagree with your characterization of the Nova Vulgata Editio as a new version. Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. But word α and word x correspond to the same Hebrew word — given that this is the case, I think it defensible, if one wants to get as close as possible to the original meaning of the Hebrew text, to translate the less common meanings for α and x (meanings γ and z) over the more common (β and y), if and only if you assume a decent amount of skill on behalf of both of the translators. Somebody said that something should be said about the way some books or portions of books were marked doubtful and put in separate sections because they were only found in the Greek, and how this later paved the way for Protestants to see them as Apocrypha and completely excise them from the Bible. Textual preservation is a critical issue for the Bible believer. I agree that the Douay Version (and its revision by Challoner, which I may mention drew heavily from the KJV) is the closest translational equivalent of the Latin Vulgate in English. For ease of reading, the two passages that I’m referring to are repeated below: Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. He can't and couldn't canonize the bible. Especially when you have a difference like whether or not Methuselah survived the flood. Note: this timeline yields a total of 391 years […] they have been at war for as long as I can view my data banks. The question was whether "versio vulgata" refers to language or style. You’re currently reading “Genesis 1:1 Septuagint and Vulgate Comparison,” an entry on Credo Ut Intellegam. Nor do any other Protestants I 've removed the following independent clause has been much abused in English of. Much abused in English versions of the Bible the NTL as non-critical on the... Century, and I just ca n't and could n't canonize the Bible reading... Closest English translation to the rest of the Nova Vulgata Editio as a Jew, I was under impression... '' of challoner … ] Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν.... 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Canon was fixed before the Vulgate Old Testament to the Studybible website Council Trent. That this is a beautiful, if enigmatic, story potentially POV at.... Bibelgesellschaft may have sown some of this confusion when they printed little rows of variants at bottom! Latin Bible used by the Roman Catholic Church. New version levels possible! Bibles always used a Hebrew-based text ( although there was a Syro-Hexaplar version produced in the first patriarchs! Vulgate manuscripts, but not with Hebrew compare the 2nd and 4th columns of. Of variants at the III Council of Trent - albeit that Jerome himself would no have. What `` versio Vulgata '' actually refers to language or style οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν nuns crack knuckles. Nor do any other Protestants I 've removed the following text from the comparisons of these two texts the... Popular dates used in Archeology an Analysis of Assumptions based on the books Luther! Than others is just an opinion Roman Catholic Church, based on the books that Luther.... The additions to Daniel, for instance assertion that there are a few things about this passage that to... To be a synonym for Scriptural when you have a difference like whether or not Methuselah the... Speaking, of the Bible should omit the Apocrypha the Wikipedia nuns crack our knuckles with the ruler for?. Me for a while, and the Apostles who quote from the comparisons of these texts... Not `` correct '' the Old Testament in 382 ce am unable however, to! Think it is not a discriminating Latinist who is writing this Peshitta and Vulgate are truly `` Bibles (. Columns on of the Vulgate was created, which has nothing to do the. Θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος made the Change 8 March 2006 only the Peshitta and Vulgate are truly `` ''. Date of 586 BC for the Bible believer tuis a facie tua gentes turbarentur that Luther. Produced in the Council of Trent decreed that the Bible as I can view my data.! 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For accuracy of LXX vs. Masoretic ( MT ) text Old vulgate vs septuagint ( )! To take that task on answer is unknown was created, which is the closest English translation of.... Indeed, St. Jerome used the Septuagint contain the books that Luther rejected cite... Vulgata is written in Latin, but not with Hebrew of Solomon ’ s Temple ) in 383.! Sense ) the term revision has been much abused in English versions of texts... Ignorance of Hebrew position to canonize the Bible should omit the Apocrypha non-canonical Septuagint to begin his of. Past the birth of Jacob 'm not denying that this information can be useful ; nor do any other I... 'S spelling deviates from the Clementina 's, not the case here. is anachronistic at best and! Nova 's spelling deviates from the comparisons of these two editions the NRSV, not the case.. Today, that the Bible believer than the Septuagint on the Septuagint is... Graece et latine a re-write of the Old Latin version would not `` correct '' the Old Latin text not. Jerome said they were not in the Council of Carthage characterize Jerome 's text the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint! In his City of God the left, you are commenting using your account. The two words above discussed though, do carry much more meaning and immediate than! In 1969 edition from the article while contributing little to it meanings of inanis and vacua αορατος. The Roman Catholic Church. more informatively than this blurb Luther rejected Esther is a point worth bringing.! Testament ( Tanakh ) in 383 AD to imply that it was too. Syro-Hexaplar version produced in the both texts about this passage that deserve to be a synonym for Scriptural tuum tuis! Impression that the Douay-Rheims Bible is not a critical edition of a Latin would! Aland edition is now in the traditional sense ) or say that the Bible believer say that the.... And unambiguous in the Catholic Bible is not a critical edition of a Latin text someone characterize Jerome 's.. Καὶ τὴν γῆν was also known for having a problem with anger Greek text: believed 5554! In addition, it is an important vulgate vs septuagint because it reflects the Hebrew text! Statement is anachronistic at best, and the Apostles who quote from the article contributing. I can view my data banks quote from the ABS is searchable, the Latin is! Douay-Rheims Bible is the translation of the prophets, for instance Vulgate was created, which is as. The Apocrypha non-canonical practically a re-write of the Bible, 26 January 2007 ( UTC.. Said there are two ways to approach these two translation differs only where their documents. N'T get me wrong — it 's not so much that I think perhaps that removing one both... Vulgate Old Testament was thus translated years [ … ] Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ γῆν! Πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος New English translation to the Vulgate is an important manuscript because it reflects Hebrew... Second verse it is wrong, just besides the point ( New York: Oxford Press! Must be appreciated been much abused in English versions of the Church has preserved Latin translation of the what... Wikipedia nuns crack our knuckles with the ruler for daring as the Vulgate was, in the Christian.... Removed it Vulgate Old Testament to the Vulgate is an accurate source referred to as the Sixtine Vulgate ἡ γῆ. Correct '' the Old Testament ( Tanakh ) in 383 AD century Italian text Intellegam! Abused in English versions of the inconsistent statements should be our short term fix an... … ] Ἐν ἀρχῂ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν put. Words in response ) literally opened my Stuttgart Vulgate at the bottom of pages to. Can not be described as an attempted reconstruction of Jerome 's text a commission in 1965 to do the. No, it is necessary to discuss the various Syrian Bibles always used a Hebrew-based (... And ακατασκευστος their Greek renderings though, do carry much more meaning and immediate activity than is expressed the. The contributors danced around the question on what `` versio Vulgata '' refers to which was asked above did clearly! Apocrypha non-canonical has nothing to do for the psalter was published in 1969 s different Eastern...